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Autor Tópico: Corbyn & Sanders  (Lida 28429 vezes)

tommy

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #160 em: 2015-10-14 15:01:50 »
Agora já virou o disco para os UK, e para o velho louco? ahahah ... onde anda o varoufakis e o tsipras conquistadores da europa?????


Extrema esquerda tão ignorante.

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #161 em: 2015-10-14 15:16:07 »
tommy, não sei se o post é ou não dirigido a mim. se é, se fosse a ti não perdia o meu tempo. há muito que estás na lista dos ignorados.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #162 em: 2015-10-14 15:31:45 »
se não fosse por mais nada, o corbyn tinha obtido o meu apoio fervoroso com isto:

UK Government cancels Ministry of Justice contract with the Saudi Arabia prison system


The Government has cancelled a contract that would have seen the Ministry of Justice provide prison services to Saudi Arabia, Downing Street has said.
The £5.9m deal, which Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn recently called on David Cameron to scrap, was controversial because of the autocratic kingdom’s weak human rights record.

The commercial venture would have seen the trading arm of the National Offender Management Service, JSi, provide development programmes for the country’s prison service.

The Times newspaper this morning reported that recently appointed Justice Secretary Michael Gove has wanted to scrap the contract for some time, but was blocked from doing so by other ministers.
The Foreign Office in particular was said to be worried that cancelling such a contract would have wider diplomatic ramifications for Britain’s relationship with the country.

Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond is said to have accused Mr Gove of naivety for his opposition to the contract, leading to a “robust exchange of views” between the two ministers.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Mr Gove played down his role, stressing that the contract had been dropped as part a cross-government review, adding that MoJ resources should be targeted at domestic prison reform.

“There is security cooperation between Britain and Saudi Arabia that has, as the prime minister and others have pointed out, saved British lives in the past,” he said.

“And while we would never compromise on our commitment to human rights we must also recognise that it’s in the interests of the most important human right of all, the right to live in safety and security, that we should continue with necessary security cooperation with the Saudi government and with other governments.”

However, he added the Government took questions of human rights “very seriously” and told the House that the Government had been interceding in the cases of Raif Badawi, Ali al-Nimr, and British grandfather Karl Andree “at the highest level”.

Announcing the decision to drop the bid, the Prime Minister’s official spokeswoman said: “This bid to provide the additional training to Saudi Arabia has been reviewed and the government has decided that it won’t be proceeding with the bid. The review has been on-going following the decision that was announced earlier in September to close down the Just Solutions International branch of the Ministry of Justice that was providing some of these services.

“We will continue to engage and work with the Saudis on human rights issues, political reform and will continue to raise concerns where we have them.”

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Mr Cameron had been “shamed” into a U-turn.

“Why on earth was it set up in the first place? We should be sending a strong message to repressive regimes that the UK is a beacon for human rights and that this contract bid is unacceptable in the 21st century, and would damage Britain's standing in the world,” he said.

The Saudi Arabian justice system makes routine use of crucifixion, beheadings, and lashes.

Amnesty International says the country has executed 175 people over the last year. Crimes punishable by death under Saudi’s penal code include adultery.

The FCO will be keenly aware that previous stands taken against the Saudi Arabian regime have not gone the UK’s way.

High Court documents released in 2008 alleged that an investigation by the Serious Fraud Office into Saudi Arabia was dropped because of threats by the kingdom to stop sharing intelligence on terror plots.

The files said the UK was told it faced “another 7/7” and the loss of “British lives on British streets” if intelligence was cut off.

Downing Street blocked the investigation from continuing, the Guardian newspaper reported at the time.

Despite the about-face on the prisons contract, the UK still sells billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia.

Between May 2010 and May 2015 the Coalition government licenced almost £4bn in arms to the regime, according to figures obtained by the Campaign Against the Arms Trade.

Saudi is currently involved in a military operation in Yemen, where a “humanitarian disaster” is unfolding, according to the United Nations.

Significant numbers of civilian casualties have been reported during the conflict, including those of 15 people at a Yemeni wedding last week.
62% of the public oppose arms sales to Saudi Arabia, with only 16% supporting them, according to a poll conducted by Opinium for the campaign group.

As Justice Secretary Michael Gove is spearheading the abolition of the Human Rights Act and its replacement with a British Bill of Rights.

independent
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Pip-Boy

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #163 em: 2015-10-14 15:49:37 »
Não te esqueças do Justice Secretary Michael Gove que foi o que avançou com o cancelamento do contracto, é Tory mas merece apoio também :P

Já a Franca do amigo Hollande não liga a estas coisas desde que paguem: http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2015/10/13/20002-20151013ARTFIG00290-manuel-valls-en-mission-commerciale-en-arabie-saoudite.php
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.

D. Antunes

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #164 em: 2015-10-14 22:53:06 »
eu, para perceber, precisava de saber desde a base: sim ou não aos impostos?
a pergunta é mais para o D de que para o Inc.
o preguiçoso do neo tb podia mandar uns bitates, que eu autorizo.

L

Mais uma vez te respondo Lark (pode ser que passes a responder mais às minhas perguntas):

-sou a favor da existência de um estado;
-pago através de impostos;
-que obviamente são pagos, na sua maior parte, por quem tem rendimentos médios ou altos.

Para mim os impostos devem ser apenas para pagar despesas indispensáveis à sociedade. Dou um exemplo e um contra-exemplo:
-pagar despesas de educação a crianças parece consensual que é útil para o futuro da sociedade;
-pagar despesas a idosos que não descontaram não me parece indispensável.
Eu pessoalmente não gosto de ver idosos a passar fome, portanto estaria disposto a pagar. Mas se alguém disser que isso não lhe faz diferença, com que direito o obrigo a pagar para isso? Penso que deve ser voluntário.
“Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”
“In the short run the market is a voting machine. In the long run, it’s a weighting machine."
Warren Buffett

“O bom senso é a coisa do mundo mais bem distribuída: todos pensamos tê-lo em tal medida que até os mais difíceis de contentar nas outras coisas não costumam desejar mais bom senso do que aquele que têm."
René Descartes

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #165 em: 2015-10-14 23:08:23 »
eu, para perceber, precisava de saber desde a base: sim ou não aos impostos?
a pergunta é mais para o D de que para o Inc.
o preguiçoso do neo tb podia mandar uns bitates, que eu autorizo.

L

Mais uma vez te respondo Lark (pode ser que passes a responder mais às minhas perguntas):

-sou a favor da existência de um estado;
-pago através de impostos;
-que obviamente são pagos, na sua maior parte, por quem tem rendimentos médios ou altos.

Para mim os impostos devem ser apenas para pagar despesas indispensáveis à sociedade. Dou um exemplo e um contra-exemplo:
-pagar despesas de educação a crianças parece consensual que é útil para o futuro da sociedade;
-pagar despesas a idosos que não descontaram não me parece indispensável.
Eu pessoalmente não gosto de ver idosos a passar fome, portanto estaria disposto a pagar. Mas se alguém disser que isso não lhe faz diferença, com que direito o obrigo a pagar para isso? Penso que deve ser voluntário.

obrigado pela resposta.
já te deves ter apercebido que eu não respondo a gotcha questions.
perguntas feitas em boa fé, no problemo.
perguntas intimidatórias... já sabes a minha posição quanto às tentativas de intimidação.
não te estou a acusar de as fazeres. podes estar perfeitamente de boa fé quando as fazes.
mas um gajo também tem direito aos seus caprichos.
se me cheira a tentativas de me espremer ou forçar a uma resposta... normalmente o efeito é contrário.
não há nada que consiga fazer quanto a isso. quando era bébé meteram-me qualquer coisa no leite e saí assim.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #166 em: 2015-10-14 23:08:50 »
Não te esqueças do Justice Secretary Michael Gove que foi o que avançou com o cancelamento do contracto, é Tory mas merece apoio também :P

true, true...

L
« Última modificação: 2015-10-14 23:09:29 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #167 em: 2015-10-14 23:29:30 »
Que maluquice, levantar a questão dos direitos humanos na China, durante uma visita de estado. (Go Jeremy!)

Jeremy Corbyn threatens to use Buckingham Palace banquet to raise human rights issues with China
The Labour leader will raise the issue unless he is granted a private meeting with Chinese officials

Jeremy Corbyn could break with convention to use a formal state banquet at Buckingham Palace to raise human rights concerns with Chinese President Xi Jinping, unless he is given a private meeting with Chinese officials to raise concerns over political repression in the country.

It had been uncertain as to whether the Labour leader would attend the banquet in honour of the state visit of Chinese leader. However Mr Corbyn’s official spokesperson confirmed he would be attending on Wednesday, amid rising concern from human rights campaigners that the government is failing to challenge the Chinese over political repression, digital censorship and arrests of human rights lawyers in the country.

David Cameron has been working hard to make next week’s visit a success, while Chancellor George Osborne has been lobbying hard to attract Chinese investment in the nuclear industry and used a recent trip to China to call for greater financial and investment links.

The Foreign Office went so far as to say that UK-China ties have “never been stronger” earlier this week, but Mr Corbyn’s official spokesman said the Labour leader would use the visit - the first state visit from a Chinese premier since 2005 - to raise the issue of human rights.

He said Mr Corbyn would be “using the opportunity” of President Xi’s four-day visit to raise concerns, and that he was “always concerned that the government doesn’t raise human rights issues.” It is understood that the Labour leader would prefer to raise the issue in a private meeting with Chinese officials, but has not ruled out using the banquet on Tuesday to raise the issue.

His spokesman said: “He will be raising issues about human rights next week. If he gets private meeting he will be doing it in those meeting – that’s the right thing to do.”

It will be the new Labour leader’s first official visit to Buckingham Palace after he was unable to make a previous visit to the royal residence to be sworn in as a member of the Privy Council.

Mr Corbyn has taken a strong stance on human rights since he was elected, raising concerns over human rights abuses in Bahrain and successfully pressing David Cameron to drop a controversial prison deal with Saudi Arabia.

His latest intervention is at odds with the political mood music coming from London and Beijing though, which has claimed that 2015 will be a “golden year” for relations between the two countries. Last night the Chinese Embassy declined to comment on whether it was in discussion with Mr Corbyn.

Xi Jinping's visit will be the first to the UK by a Chinese President since 2005

Steve Tsang, the head of the School of Contemporary Chinese Studies at Nottingham University told the Independent Mr Corbyn’s comment had the potential to “embarrass” the Chinese leadership who valued the political legitimacy they gain at home from the “pomp and ceremony” of a state visit.

He said: “I’m sure there will be Foreign office officials today who will be working hard to stress that Mr Corbyn doesn’t speak for the Government. They will need to do more than that though, because the idea of an opposition leader speaking his mind doesn’t exist in the Chinese system so it will be hard for them to understand.”

Downing Street has said it has “turned the page” in relations with China after the Prime Minister was caught up in a row when he met with a Dalai Lama three years ago, which sparked a major political backlash from Beijing. Since then the younger generation of Royals have been used to court China and Prince William visited the country in March, becoming the first high-level royal to go to the country since 1986.

However human rights campaigners say the push to cement trade deals with China, including Mr Osborne’s recent visit, has caused the government to overlook continued human rights concerns, including the recent arrest and detention of more than 240 human rights lawyers.

Allan Hogarth, Amnesty’s UK head of policy, said: “Chancellor George Osborne actually won plaudits from the Chinese state media for his ‘modest manner’ over his [lack of] criticism of human rights in the country, so we welcome Mr Corbyn’s commitment to challenge China over its many human rights abuses.”

The state visit comes after the Independent revealed earlier this month that human rights are no longer a “top priority” for the Government, as ministers put resources into supporting trade deals than tackling injustice in other parts of the world.

Human rights campaigners are currently gearing up for protests next week, which will focus of an official procession which will see President Xi Jinping travel to Buckingham Palace in an open-carriage. 

A spokesman for the Free Tibet campaign welcomed the Labour leader’s intervention.

He said: “What’s needed most is for the government not to “raise” human rights as part of the diplomatic process but to make a robust public statement showing China that we aren’t selling our principles for their cash.”

independent
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Pip-Boy

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #168 em: 2015-10-15 10:13:21 »
Então mas este Corbyn não sabe que os direitos humanos estão á venda e que os $$ são todos iguais, venham eles da China ou da Arábia Saudita ?
Claramente faltou ás aulas de jotinha bem comportado, eheh :)

O mais giro é se não lhe dão a tal audiência privada e ele ter que falar no assunto durante o banquete no Buckingham Palace (a visita é do presidente chinês no UK). Vai haver muita gente a cair-lhe mal o jantar :)
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #169 em: 2015-10-15 10:26:12 »
Então mas este Corbyn não sabe que os direitos humanos estão á venda e que os $$ são todos iguais, venham eles da China ou da Arábia Saudita ?
Claramente faltou ás aulas de jotinha bem comportado, eheh :)

O mais giro é se não lhe dão a tal audiência privada e ele ter que falar no assunto durante o banquete no Buckingham Palace (a visita é do presidente chinês no UK). Vai haver muita gente a cair-lhe mal o jantar :)

mas vai haver gente como eu, que sou um sacana, a quem vai cair muito bem a intervenção.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #170 em: 2015-10-15 11:02:50 »
Hillary Clinton, a Socialist, and Three No Names Walk Into a Casino
Feature: What I saw at the first Democratic debate
     
BY: Matthew Walther 
October 15, 2015 5:00 am

LAS VEGAS—I like to think of myself as nostalgic, though my wife is quick to point out that most of the things I pine for—smoking on airplanes, a church in which the traditional Latin Mass is celebrated exclusively, TV limited to the Big Three and public broadcasting—disappeared before I was born. She is right, of course, especially when she catches me talking about how I miss the “old Democratic Party.”

What do I mean by this? Not Clintonite “triangulation” or the countercultural loucheness of McGovern, but the party of FDR and Truman and Moynihan, the party that represented the aspirations and attitudes of working-class people, that saw America through the Depression and won the Second World War, the party of UAW men and Knights of Columbus and public works schemes.

Whatever else might be said of it, the Democratic is the more romantic of our two major parties. I suppose my affection for it goes back to early childhood, when I wore my Robin Hood Halloween costume to the supermarket and wondered why the Trix Rabbit was being denied his basic cereal rights.

For most people paid to be there, the first Democratic presidential debate on Wednesday was a tedious affair. In the press filing room at the Wynn luxury resort—tower suites from $666 a night—groans alternated with silence for most of the evening, and afterwards journalists snickered about how the whole thing was a foregone conclusion, Hillary Clinton was going to be our next president, are we going to the casino first or the strip club, etc. A few reacted more strongly. A hotel staffer whom I met during a cigarette break asked me whether I could guess why she was no longer watching: “Because it made me want to strangle people!”

For the determined would-be nostalgic, however, the evening was not without charm. Fool that I am, I confess that at the level of personalities anyway, I like three of the candidates in the Democratic field very much. I could not help but smile when the first one to speak, after the ghastly rendering of the national anthem, was Lincoln Chafee. That poor man! I have gotten a lot of guff for saying so over the years, but I like him. A classics major at Brown, a trained farrier, an Episcopalian descended from a venerable political and industrial dynasty, he embodies the old-fashioned WASP ethos of selflessness and upright public service that has all but vanished now.

“I have never had a scandal,” Chafee said in the first of the evening’s scarce laugh lines. “I have high ethical standards.” The thing is, though, I believe him: I’m sure the list of bad or mean things he has never done is as long and detailed as the résumé he recited (“I served on the Foreign Relations Committee and I chaired the Middle East Subcommittee for four years”) when asked to introduce himself to voters. When he said that the controversy surrounding Clinton’s email was a “huge issue” and a threat to America’s credibility among her allies, one got the sense that a) he was genuinely disgusted with her lying and b) he had probably not spent much time with computers. I loved the sheepish smile he gave when Anderson Cooper, the best moderator we have seen so far in the current cycle of debates, asked him to name an enemy. But this moment also reminded me why my liking Chafee is equal parts whimsy and patronage. “The coal lobby”? He is a fop and a credulous one. His dogged good nature is his own worst enemy. I hope there is room for him in the next administration, Republican or Democratic, as chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts or ambassador to Belgium or something similarly dotty.

Jim Webb is a different matter. He is a genuine favorite of mine. Absent one issue (about which more anon) I would be tempted to say that he is the man I want in the White House. His thinking is incisive and original on subjects the other candidates haven’t even heard of—only one Republican so far, Jeb Bush, has touched on the shabby state of our intelligence service and the increasingly fraught issue of online security, two of Webb’s major themes. Webb is a good writer and often a first-rate speaker, but he did very poorly on Wednesday night, giving viewers the impression that, besides being out of step with his party, he is irritable and washed up.

Webb’s constant whining—this is the only word for it—about not getting enough time was bad on its own terms and would have reflected poorly on anyone in politics with the exception of Ben Carson, whose schtick is that he does not participate in the debates that he attends. For the author of Born Fighting it was very bad—probably the single stupidest thing I’ve seen anyone do in these debates so far, though I hesitate to use the word “disaster” in relation to a campaign that is already polling around 0.9 percent.

Why do these minor candidates think voters care about bills they introduced a decade ago or minor posts they held before the Internet was invented? I first noticed it with George Pataki and Rick Santorum during the last Republican debate. Chafee and Webb were awful about this on Wednesday. There are better ways of skirting around the fact that you’ve been out of public service for a while, gentlemen.

Martin O’Malley is not quite a “type” the way Chafee and Webb are. I want for the life of me to see him as a classic machine politician in the tradition of James Farley and the Daleys. He isn’t one, alas, though a friend of mine tells me that he is very good at pub trivia. His record is that of a not particularly interesting or controversial governor who did the sort of things—making noise about gun control, signing gay marriage legislation—expected of other Democrats around the time he was in office. He would like, I think, to be a sort of consensus candidate, the Clinton without the scandals that Joe Biden is expected to be should he join the race, but there’s nothing doing there. Rumors sometimes make the rounds about the coming O’Malley oppo dump that will be the end of Clinton, but that’s all tosh. I notice that he was very polite about President Obama’s record throughout the night, more so even than Clinton. Surely he is pulling for energy secretary.

Bernie Sanders was the second best performer of the evening. He was amusing and articulate throughout and, when he saved MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell from a herd of stampeding reporters, even gallant. What grassroots elements turned out at the Wynn, not a very Sanders-esque venue, were there for him. He did not spare millionaires or billionaires, but he also branched out. His focused, specific response to needling about gun control from the moderators and his fellows on stage did not come off as special pleading (at least to me). Vermont and Maryland are very different states. His insistence on this was typical of him at his most commensensical.

Unfortunately, Sanders’s most commonsensical moments are pretty rare. I share his disgust with conspicuous consumption and find myself at the very least wary of how our financial system is organized. I also think that his brand of class warfare is, on the whole, a much nobler enterprise than the racial grievance-mongering pushed by others on the left (and deftly saluted by Clinton and O’Malley on Wednesday). Still, I have a hard time taking his spending proposals seriously. A trillion for this, a trillion for that—if I were Anderson Cooper I would have asked him how many billions and millions, respectively, there are in a trillion. Could he have answered? I suspect that even those Americans who accept his diagnosis of what’s wrong with capitalism will reject his socialist prescriptions. As Webb put it toward the end of the evening, “I don’t think the revolution’s gonna come.”

Finally, we reach Mrs. Clinton. What is there to say about her? Clinton is an extraordinary paradox. She won Wednesday’s debate, just as I think she is likely to win her party’s nomination and perhaps even the White House, despite the fact that she is the least likeable Democrat in the race. Chafee the U.S. equivalent of an uncle in a P.G. Wodehouse story, Webb the Scotch-Irish badass, O’Malley the most reasonable-sounding Irish pol America has ever met, Bernie the last best hope of an entire generation of tofu eaters and and the guru of two younger ones, and Clinton the—well, what exactly? The baking and scrunchie-wearing grandmother? The sober stateswoman of Hard Choices? The senile authoritarian familiar to readers of her emails, forever surrounded by toadies and flatterers, perpetually assured that all is well until it suddenly isn’t?

Yet she did win. It was clear that Clinton had practiced, that she was ready especially for Sanders’s challenge from the left and for Cooper’s questions about trustworthiness. She looked good, too. Her smiles were more genuine. She did not sneer or grow impatient. Her terse “no” in response to Chafee’s feeble efforts on the email front was almost worthy of her husband. It reminded me of something that anyone who has watched her recent public appearances might forget, namely, that she can be clever and eloquent when she needs to be. The only awkward line from her all night was an aborted attempt at chumminess (“We’ve been around a cumulative … quite some period of time.)”

All this is a polite way of saying that the insurance, big pharma, crony finance, green-tech, Third-World-dictator-sleazebag constituency that she and Bill represent is the future of the Democratic Party, and there is nothing Sanders—whose memorable line about her emails was actually a significant concession—or anyone else can do about it. It is a betrayal of people like my grandparents who pulled the lever for decades without dreaming that Roosevelt had built a clearing house, much less an abattoir. (In my view the gulf between a party for whom abortion on demand is an article of faith and one that makes even a pretense of opposing it is one between darkness and light, between, well, death and life—hence my inability to support even a very good man like Webb.) It is an insult to the party’s earnestly progressive activist base as well.

Wandering the halls of the Wynn after the debate, I got the sense that I was not the only one to recognize this and feel bad about it. A young woman I saw coming out of the Sanders viewing party a few doors down from the spin room, looking wistfully at no one in particular, was wearing, of all things, a Robin Hood outfit.

Dear Robin Hood girl, wherever you might be, I would have asked you for a comment, but I didn’t. Not because I feared whatever accusations of microaggression your friends might have hurled at me, but out of respect, both emotional and aesthetic, for your reverie—and because I thought you would be more useful to me as a silent symbol. In any case, I hope I misinterpreted that look, and that you were and remain blissfully happy and full of hope. We must cherish our illusions.

freebeacon / Mathew Walter
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Thunder

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #171 em: 2015-10-20 15:37:36 »
O debate inicial estava bastante à volta da ideia, que os rendimentos da parcela mais baixa estão estagnados ou a contrair.
Rapidamente entramos num debate sobre redistribuição. Acho que não é o mesmo debate.

Se pensarmos dos anos 60/70 para a frente, as condições do mercado de trabalho mudaram consideravelmente.

-Entrada em força das mulheres no mercado de trabalho.
-Aumento da idade da reforma
-Ganhos enormes em termos de produtividade (metodologias, distribuição, informatização, robotização, etc)
-Abertura dos mercados, permitindo a deslocalização de indústrias

Em abono da verdade, também apareceram muitos empregos e necessidades que anteriormente não existiam.

Se pensarmos que um mercado, com a abundância de mão de obra existente nos países ocidentais, e com a possibilidade de pressionar os salários, devido à deslocalização de muitas das unidades industrias, funcionar com base num sistema laissez faire, que futuro está reservado para a maioria dos trabalhadores dos países desenvolvidos?
Ver os salários declinarem e não bufar? Não têm os governos obrigação de começar a abordar estas questões?
Que sistema irá suportar unidades familiares cada vez mais "entaladas"?

Quais as implicações para a democracia de 1645 pessoas a nível mundial, terem assets (declarados ... ) superiores a 6,4 T USD (lista Forbes 2014)?

@ Inc:
 
Não concordo com o exemplo que usaste:

"Não podemos é objectivamente dizer que isso provoque uma situação mais justa, porque se trouxeres isso à escala pessoal (um grupo pequeno de pessoas, onde consigamos entender a ética das situações em questão), não verás uma "justiça" superior.

Por exemplo, num grupo de pessoas uma passa o ano a esfalfar-se a trabalhar 10 horas por dia. A outra trabalha de vez em quando. No fim a primeira conseguiu recursos para trocar por um carro, uma casa, comer fora, etc, ao passo que a segunda só consegue comer 1 tijela de arroz por dia. Qual a "justiça" de ir tirar recursos ao primeiro para os dar ao segundo?"

Eu não digo que o teu exemplo não serve. Entendo a lógica e até certo ponto até concordo com ela. Só que o teu exemplo enferma dum erro.
É que nesse grupo de pessoas não há um quadro legislativo a reger a interacção entre elas.
A presença de leis e a capacidade de molda-las (a seu favor) modifica totalmente essa interacção.

 
« Última modificação: 2015-10-20 15:48:39 por Thunder »
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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #172 em: 2015-10-20 15:47:26 »
Eu não estava a discutir redistribuição, no sentido do estado coletar aos ricos para distribuir aos pobres.
Estava-se a discutir como a contínua erosão do mercado de trabalho poderá impactar os equilíbrios sociais existentes. Quer pela extinção contínua de postos de trabalho, quer pela redução do valor pago.
O que está a ser discutido é o rácio que cada um dos quadros duma empresa açambarcam. E isto é uma discussão velha e sempre em aberto, não pode ser ridicularizado e colocado como se fosse algo sem sentido. E na minha opinião será algo que estará sempre em cima da mesa.

Vejam o gráfico que coloquei.
Acho que é bem explícito. A teoria que a maré levanta quer o bote de borracha quer o petroleiro parece levar com um grande torpedo. O famoso: "se o patrão está bem, tu também estarás bem".
A escala temporal é enorme, o que permite anular o argumento de que existe um lag, que os ganhos do topo, mais tarde ou mais cedo se refletem nos outros extratos.
Na minha opinião as pessoas vão cada vez mais queixar-se daquilo que o gráfico explicitamente mostra. E sem dúvida que cada vez mais gente culpará o "capitalismo" (no sentido depreciativo do termo) pelo fosso cavado. E as pessoas podem olhar pacificamente para o continuar da degradação, ou acharem que a situação não faz sentido.

Achar que há capitalismo e ponto, que não há nuances, é um erro.
Porque é que temos países desenvolvidos, capitalistas , com índices de Gini tão diversos?
Quando um governo passa legislação que diz que após às 20:00h (ou 21h, 22h, não interessa ao caso) não pagas um valor extra pela hora de trabalho, não está o governo a definir como a riqueza será distribuída?
Quando o governo basicamente não fiscaliza se os horários de trabalho são cumpridos ou não, e o funcionário tem que dar umas valentes horas "de borla" a uma grande superfície, a uma grande cadeia de roupa num shopping, não há transferência de riqueza indevida? Não são factores derivados de acordos voluntários, as pessoas aceitam porque num mercado de trabalho tão restrito e tão cerceado, não possuem grandes alternativas. É calar e comer.

O capitalismo precisa de ser preservado, ao contrário do que o Inc diz.
São necessárias regras e agentes que apliquem essas mesmas regras.
Contratos e agentes que zelem que os mesmos sejam cumpridos.

Esse gráfico tem também que ser visto à luz do aumento de despesas sociais e de outras despesas públicas.
E penso também que a pior distribuição da riqueza nos EUA tem muito a haver com a bolha de valorização de activos imobiliários e mobiliários e que reverterá em boa parte quando os activos cairem.
Existe é exagero nos ordenados de alguns adminsitradores de empresas (com fraco controle acionista) e, claro, num mundo global os que têm quilidade têm mais hipóteses de ser (devidamente) recompensados do que num mercado menor.

Relativamente às horas nocturnas, o que o governo fez foi alterar a definição anterior. Poderia ser por livre acordo entre as partes simplesmente.
Repara, em períodos de crise é bom existir alguma flexibilidade quanto aos custos laborais. Isso permite que a crise seja não menos intensa, mas menos prolongada. E permite também que o desemprego não suba tanto. É preferível todos perderem um pouco durante uns anos do que alguns perderem quase tudo.

Sim, é verdade. há essa vertente que eu não acautelei, tens toda a razão.
Em muitos países pode-se receber menos à nível salarial, em % do PIB, mas depois ter acesso a serviços que no fundo equivalem a rendimento.

Em relação à questão da flexibilidade laboral.
Em teoria até concordo contigo, mas a minha intuição é que as boas intenções acabam por distorcer o mercado. E a corda costuma quebrar no ponto mais fraco.
Uma legislação desse tipo, quando as condições melhorarem será revertida?

Os dados, usando USD ajustados, mostram que o nível salarial das classes mais baixas está estagnado ou subiu pouco, ao contrário dos escalões mais altos.
Isto para prazos temporais muito largos (décadas).
Se as economias progrediram, e segundo a "cassete" se as condições para as empresas melhorarem e as mesmas prosperarem, os trabalhadores acabaram por também serem beneficiados, não há aqui algo que não bate certo?
Porque estamos a falar em escalas temporais largas, em que deveria ser claramente visível uma relação de causa e efeito.
« Última modificação: 2015-10-20 15:47:50 por Thunder »
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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #173 em: 2015-10-20 15:47:39 »
A presença de leis não altera a justiça básica da situação. Uma coisa não passa a ser mais "justa" porque a lei a impõe.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #174 em: 2015-10-20 15:56:33 »
A presença de leis não altera a justiça básica da situação. Uma coisa não passa a ser mais "justa" porque a lei a impõe.

Porque no teu exemplo a interacção entre os dois só ocorre na "hora de tirar a um para dar ao outro".
Numa sociedade há pessoas que podem empregar outras. E isso é legislado e supostamente fiscalizado.
Há pessoas a concorrerem umas com as outras. E isso obedece a um quadro legal e a um organismo fiscalizador.
Etc, etc
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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #175 em: 2015-10-20 16:00:44 »
Sim, mas uns empregarem outros, etc, também não altera a justiça básica da situação.

Se A contrata com B pagar-lhe X por determinado serviço e B aceita voluntariamente, o outcome mais justo é B obter X pelo seu serviço. Leis que alterem para cima ou para baixo o X levam a um outcome menos justo, ainda que por outras razões possam ser implementadas.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #176 em: 2015-10-20 16:04:54 »
Tudo certo, eu sei que tens essa visão.
E eu também acho que sempre que possível o mercado deve ditar as regras.
Agora como abordas as questões que eu coloco na primeira parte do meu post?
« Última modificação: 2015-10-20 16:05:18 por Thunder »
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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #177 em: 2015-10-20 16:08:02 »
Tudo certo, eu sei que tens essa visão.
E eu também acho que sempre que possível o mercado deve ditar as regras.
Agora como abordas as questões que eu coloco na primeira parte do meu post?

Quais, especificamente?
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #178 em: 2015-10-20 16:08:40 »
Se pensarmos dos anos 60/70 para a frente, as condições do mercado de trabalho mudaram consideravelmente.

-Entrada em força das mulheres no mercado de trabalho.
-Aumento da idade da reforma
-Ganhos enormes em termos de produtividade (metodologias, distribuição, informatização, robotização, etc)
-Abertura dos mercados, permitindo a deslocalização de indústrias

Em abono da verdade, também apareceram muitos empregos e necessidades que anteriormente não existiam.

Se pensarmos que um mercado, com a abundância de mão de obra existente nos países ocidentais, e com a possibilidade de pressionar os salários, devido à deslocalização de muitas das unidades industrias, funcionar com base num sistema laissez faire, que futuro está reservado para a maioria dos trabalhadores dos países desenvolvidos?
Ver os salários declinarem e não bufar? Não têm os governos obrigação de começar a abordar estas questões?
Que sistema irá suportar unidades familiares cada vez mais "entaladas"?

Quais as implicações para a democracia de 1645 pessoas a nível mundial, terem assets (declarados ... ) superiores a 6,4 T USD (lista Forbes 2014)?
Nullius in Verba
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Re: Corbyn & Sanders
« Responder #179 em: 2015-10-20 17:21:42 »
Bem, isso é um problema mais complexo que a simples justiça. Pelo contrário, a questão que levantas é verdadeiramente "Como manter o sistema injusto e a favorecer os Ocidentais?".
« Última modificação: 2015-10-20 17:22:10 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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