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Autor Tópico: Krugman et al  (Lida 614558 vezes)

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2700 em: 2015-12-07 18:37:03 »
Espantoso!
A europa está a conseguir fazer pior que na Grande Depressão...
É como se não se tivesse passado nada.
Como se Keynes nunca tivesse existido.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2701 em: 2015-12-07 18:41:44 »
Paul Krugman - New York Times Blog

The Passive-Aggressive Monetary Two-Step

Ted Cruz somewhat surprised Janet Yellen by accusing the Fed of causing the Great Recession by tightening monetary policy in 2008; David Beckworth sort-of-kind-of supports Cruz by arguing that the Fed did in fact “passively” tighten by failing to do enough to offset falling spending.

Uh-oh: it’s starting to look a bit like the Friedman two-step, only this time done at internet speed.

By the Friedman two-step, I mean the process of argument that began with Friedman and Schwartz on the Great Depression, in which they argued that the Fed could have prevented the Depression by aggressively expanding the monetary base to prevent a sharp fall in broader monetary aggregates. This was a defensible argument, although it looks much weaker in the light of more recent developments; as I warned in 1998, in a liquidity trap the central bank loses control of monetary aggregates as well as the real economy; it’s by no means clear that the Fed really could have prevented the Depression. Still, that remains a live argument.

But what happened over time — and Friedman himself was very culpable — was that the claim “the Fed could have prevented the depression” turned into “the Fed caused the depression.” See? Government is the root of all evil! Friedman used this to push his patented agenda of laissez-faire on everything except monetary policy, where under the guise of M2 targeting he was actually calling for a very active Fed.

The thing is that even if that would have worked (which it probably wouldn’t), it was inevitable that others would go the whole way and call for laissez-faire all the way, including monetary policy. I mean, who needs the Fed when everyone knows it caused the Great Depression. Back to the gold standard!

The path from Friedman and Schwartz to goldbuggism took several decades. But things move faster these days.

When Ted Cruz uses the passive-aggressive method to attack the Fed, claiming that it caused the Great Recession because it didn’t do more in 2008, he isn’t using it to push the cause of market monetarism. He is already on record as an ardent supporter of a return to gold. Needless to say, a gold standard would have meant much tighter, not looser, monetary policy since 2008. But Cruz uses the framing of failure to act as acting in the wrong direction to obscure this point.

The question of whether inadequate policy should be viewed as tightening may seem like a fun word game. But you really don’t want to provide, um, passive support to policy ideas that would make things much worse.

krugman
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2702 em: 2015-12-08 20:04:52 »
Ainda sobre o tema da climate change, algo que foi apresentado hoje e que reforça o que eu aqui estava a dizer:

http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231656.html#msg231656

Para ser ciência as previsões dos modelos têm que ser comparadas com a realidade.

"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Zel

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2703 em: 2015-12-08 21:04:08 »
muito bom

Zel

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2704 em: 2015-12-08 21:09:23 »
isso de comparar as previsoes com a realidade tambem nao eh nada que preocupe o krugman, ehhe

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2705 em: 2015-12-08 23:01:53 »
Paul Krugman - New York Times Blog
Obamacare and the Cockroaches



In policy discourse, zombies and cockroaches are somewhat different.

Zombie ideas are claims that should have been killed by evidence, but just keep shambling along, like the notion that vast numbers of Canadians, frustrated by socialized medicine, come to America in search of treatment. (It was in a paper about that and other myths that I first encountered the zombie terminology.) Cockroaches are claims that disappear for a while when proved ludicrously wrong, but just keep on coming back.

I think of the notion that Obamacare hasn’t really reduced the number of uninsured as a cockroach; it seemed to me that it subsided for a while after the big enrollment numbers of 2014 and the sharp drop in uninsurance rates. And really, how could you continue to make that claim given the results shown above, which are corroborated by independent sources like Gallup?

But the claim is back, as Charles Gaba notes. He says that Avik Roy’s latest is embarrassing, which I guess it is — but how much more embarrassed can the guy who did the totally spurious work on “rate shock” get? I’d say, rather, that the latest is impressive in the way it uses multiple layers of misrepresentation to obscure what you might have thought was too obvious to deny.

Anyway, it’s another example of the proposition that in modern political discourse, in particular on the right, no bad argument is ever abandoned. It’s like inequality, where the current position of the usual suspects is that it hasn’t gone up, it has gone up but it’s a good thing, we can’t do anything about it, and anyway it’s all the fault of liberals. You might think one would have to choose one of these lines, but they don’t.

krugman
« Última modificação: 2015-12-08 23:04:33 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2706 em: 2015-12-08 23:04:13 »
VSPs and the FN

Kevin O’Rourke weighs in on the big showing of Marine Le Pen and friends in the French elections; like me, he argues that it has a lot to do with Europe’s economic failures.

Let me add, however, that it’s not just a matter of times being bad. It’s also important to realize the way in which traditional sources of authority have devalued themselves through repeated policy failure. Europe, much more than the U.S., is run by Very Serious People, who tell the public that it must accept Schengen, austerity, and regulatory harmonization (the eurosausage!), and that these are the right things to do because those who understand how the world works say so. But if things keep going badly, this authority based on the presumption of expertise erodes, and politicians who offer more visceral answers gain support.

Funke, Schularick, and Trebesch recently did some work asking whether the rise of right-wing extremism in the 1930s was paralleled in other times, and found that the answer is yes: “politics takes a hard right turn following financial crises.” Interestingly, this isn’t true for all kinds of crises. Financial crises, they suggest, are different, in part because

Citar
financial crises may be perceived as endogenous, ‘inexcusable’ problems resulting from policy failures, moral hazard and favouritism
.

I would put it a bit differently: financial crises call into question whether respectable people know what they’re doing, in a way that other kinds of economic shocks often don’t.

The point for Europe is that the doctrinaire policies followed since 2010, and the unwillingness to rethink dogma in the light of experience, aren’t just economically destructive. They undermine the legitimacy of the whole European system, and may in the end lead to political catastrophe.

krugman
« Última modificação: 2015-12-08 23:04:45 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Kin2010

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2707 em: 2015-12-09 02:26:04 »
Ainda sobre o tema da climate change, algo que foi apresentado hoje e que reforça o que eu aqui estava a dizer:

http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231656.html#msg231656

Para ser ciência as previsões dos modelos têm que ser comparadas com a realidade.


Será que o autor está a testar as versões *actualizadas* desses modelos? (ou com parâmetros actualizados)?

É que os cientistas que estudam isto e fazem os ditos modelos estão, obviamente, constantemente a comparar os modelos com a realidade e a ajustar os parâmetros de houver divergência. Parece-me inacreditável que a comunidade científica que lida com este tema não reparasse numa discrepância como essa aí acima. Ou que a ignorasse. Ou que fizesse cover-up.




Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2708 em: 2015-12-09 02:32:33 »
Ainda sobre o tema da climate change, algo que foi apresentado hoje e que reforça o que eu aqui estava a dizer:

http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231656.html#msg231656

Para ser ciência as previsões dos modelos têm que ser comparadas com a realidade.


Será que o autor está a testar as versões *actualizadas* desses modelos? (ou com parâmetros actualizados)?

É que os cientistas que estudam isto e fazem os ditos modelos estão, obviamente, constantemente a comparar os modelos com a realidade e a ajustar os parâmetros de houver divergência. Parece-me inacreditável que a comunidade científica que lida com este tema não reparasse numa discrepância como essa aí acima. Ou que a ignorasse. Ou que fizesse cover-up.


é um 'cientista' pago.

espreita http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231684.html#msg231684

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2709 em: 2015-12-09 12:23:12 »
Ainda sobre o tema da climate change, algo que foi apresentado hoje e que reforça o que eu aqui estava a dizer:

http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231656.html#msg231656

Para ser ciência as previsões dos modelos têm que ser comparadas com a realidade.


Será que o autor está a testar as versões *actualizadas* desses modelos? (ou com parâmetros actualizados)?

É que os cientistas que estudam isto e fazem os ditos modelos estão, obviamente, constantemente a comparar os modelos com a realidade e a ajustar os parâmetros de houver divergência. Parece-me inacreditável que a comunidade científica que lida com este tema não reparasse numa discrepância como essa aí acima. Ou que a ignorasse. Ou que fizesse cover-up.


Isso descreve precisamente o que NÃO pode ser feito numa experiência científica ...

Como eu digo imensas vezes, é preciso comparar as previsões de um modelo congelado em alguma data, com o que acontece na realidade dessa data para a frente.
« Última modificação: 2015-12-09 12:25:58 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2710 em: 2015-12-09 12:24:56 »
Ainda sobre o tema da climate change, algo que foi apresentado hoje e que reforça o que eu aqui estava a dizer:

http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231656.html#msg231656

Para ser ciência as previsões dos modelos têm que ser comparadas com a realidade.


Será que o autor está a testar as versões *actualizadas* desses modelos? (ou com parâmetros actualizados)?

É que os cientistas que estudam isto e fazem os ditos modelos estão, obviamente, constantemente a comparar os modelos com a realidade e a ajustar os parâmetros de houver divergência. Parece-me inacreditável que a comunidade científica que lida com este tema não reparasse numa discrepância como essa aí acima. Ou que a ignorasse. Ou que fizesse cover-up.


é um 'cientista' pago.

espreita http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231684.html#msg231684

L


Pagos são rigorosamente todos ...

Daí que te tenhas que cingir aos factos apresentados por cada lado. Sendo que outputs de modelos não são factos, os factos são a realidade. Aliás, neste momento o lado do global warming até anda a mexer em factos (algo facilmente constatável, só tem que se comparar para uma mesma fonte o que foi reportado há décadas atrás, e o que agora essa fonte indica como tendo sido reportado há décadas atrás).
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2711 em: 2015-12-09 15:48:36 »
o debate faz-se aqui ou no outro tópico?
traz o outro tópico para aqui. o kin teria escrito nesse, se o encontrasse aqui.
em off topic é que não está a fazer nada.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Kin2010

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2712 em: 2015-12-09 20:01:16 »
Ainda sobre o tema da climate change, algo que foi apresentado hoje e que reforça o que eu aqui estava a dizer:

http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1950.msg231656.html#msg231656

Para ser ciência as previsões dos modelos têm que ser comparadas com a realidade.


Será que o autor está a testar as versões *actualizadas* desses modelos? (ou com parâmetros actualizados)?

É que os cientistas que estudam isto e fazem os ditos modelos estão, obviamente, constantemente a comparar os modelos com a realidade e a ajustar os parâmetros de houver divergência. Parece-me inacreditável que a comunidade científica que lida com este tema não reparasse numa discrepância como essa aí acima. Ou que a ignorasse. Ou que fizesse cover-up.


Isso descreve precisamente o que NÃO pode ser feito numa experiência científica ...

Como eu digo imensas vezes, é preciso comparar as previsões de um modelo congelado em alguma data, com o que acontece na realidade dessa data para a frente.


Não se deve ajustar parâmetros *se* estes forem bem conhecidos e o seu valor numérico for inquestionável. Mas muitos dos parâmetros não têm um valor conhecido. O que os modelizadores fazem nestes casos é atribuir-lhes um *range de plausibilidade*. Depois faz-se variar cada parâmetro dentro desse range até que o output do modelo dê resultados que estão próximos da realidade já conhecida. Isto aliás é prática corrente e chama-se "model fitting": é o modelo que se adapta aos dados, o que não tem nada de mal pois nem todos os parâmetros eram conhecidos. Depois de fazer esse model fitting com a realidade já conhecida, então o modelo extrapola para a realidade ainda não conhecida (por ex, as temperaturas do futuro).


Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2713 em: 2015-12-09 20:04:45 »
Sim, correcto, e volta à base em termos de se saber o que prevê ou não ... volta a ter que se esperar umas décadas para se saber se é uma coisa confiável, cada vez que se fizer isso.

A única forma de isso ter validade é os parâmetros serem recolhidos da realidade e afectarem o modelo segundo regras imbutidas no próprio modelo. Tipo o CO2 ser uma variável no modelo, e à medida que se verifica a sua evolução real, as previsões do modelo serem ajustadas segundo regras contidas nesse mesmo modelo.

Quando se segue acima o que aconteceu ao IPCC 1990, o cenário "business as usual" não andou longe do que se verificou na realidade em termos de CO2. Mas lá está, as previsões segundo esse cenário não prestaram.

----------

É claro, já as "previsões à posteriori" são melhores segundo o IPCC 2007 depois de "ajustados E escolhidos os modelos"...  :D

Kin, RIR da ciência daquilo. Aquilo feito noutra aplicação científica qualquer levava logo com o rótulo de "fraude".
« Última modificação: 2015-12-09 20:08:36 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Zel

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2714 em: 2015-12-09 20:53:32 »
eh uma fraude que da muito dinheiro as pessoas certas

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2715 em: 2015-12-12 22:32:44 »
É pá! O Krugman está em Portugal e não me disse nada?
Magoei...!

Está cá para uma homenagem póstuma ao Silva Lopes com quem trabalhou nos anos setenta (em portugal) , aquando da primeira intervenção do FMI.

krugman:

I’m in Portugal — sorry, too jet-lagged to post music this week — where I am attending a conference in memory of Jose da Silva Lopes. (No, I’m not doing interviews — I’m spending my spare time with friends.) And I have been doing some homework about the terrible times Portugal has recently suffered. What especially caught my eye was this:



We used to think that high labor mobility was a good thing for currency unions, because it would allow the union’s economy to adjust to asymmetric shocks — booms in some places, busts in others — by moving workers rather than having to cut wages in the lagging regions. But what about the tax base? If bad times cause one country’s workers to leave in large numbers, who will service its debt and care for its retirees?

Indeed, it’s easy conceptually to see how a country could enter a demographic death spiral. Start with a high level of debt, explicit and implicit. If the work force falls through emigration, servicing this debt will require higher taxes on those who remain, which could lead to more emigration, and so on.

How realistic is this possibility? It obviously depends on having a sufficiently large burden of debt and other mandatory expenditure. It also depends on the elasticity of the working-age population to the tax burden, which in turn will depend both on the underlying economics — is there a strongly downward-sloping demand for labor, or is it highly elastic? — and on things like the willingness of workers to move, which may depend on culture and language.

Portugal, with its long tradition of outmigration, may be more vulnerable than most, but I have no idea whether it’s really in that zone.

One thing you might wonder is whether currency union makes any difference here. Can’t adverse shocks produce emigration and a death spiral regardless of currency regime? Yes, but. With a flexible exchange rate, adverse shocks will cause depreciation and a fall in real wages; under a currency union, they will produce unemployment for an extended period, until the grinding process of internal devaluation restores competitiveness. And everything I’ve seen says that migration is much more sensitive to unemployment than to wage differentials.

Now, it’s true that emigration in an economy with mass unemployment doesn’t immediately reduce the tax base, since the marginal worker wouldn’t have been employed anyway. But it sets things up for longer-run deterioration.

Oh, and Lisbon is really lovely despite all — and seems, justifiably, to be attracting a lot of tourists, which surely helps.

Now off to my friends’ house.

Krugman
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2716 em: 2015-12-14 17:30:55 »
Adjustment in the Euro Area

The crisis in the euro area — as opposed to the broader global financial crisis — began in late 2009. It’s still far from over. But some of the hard-hit peripheral economies, notably Ireland and Spain, are finally growing again. So how should we think about such recoveries, and how do they fit into an overall picture of the single currency’s performance? I thought it might be useful to walk through how I understand the situation, illustrating the argument with data from Spain, which I think of as the quintessential euro-crisis country — a country that didn’t commit any obvious policy sins, but was whipsawed by huge inflows of capital that suddenly reversed. (All data are from the IMF World Economic Outlook database.)

First, a reminder of just how bad it has been, and how far we still are from full recovery:



Notice that at this point Finland — which is suffering from an idiosyncratic shock to its export industries rather than a sudden stop in capital inflows — is doing as badly as much of southern Europe. This is a reminder that the euro system creates huge problems for adjustment everywhere, that this isn’t a one-time problem.

But how would we expect countries to respond to adverse shocks? Contrary to what many people seem to believe, Keynesian-type analysis doesn’t say that countries can never recover without devaluation and/or fiscal stimulus; on the contrary, as I pointed out more than three years ago, it predicts a gradual recovery through internal devaluation — that is, a depressed economy will cause low or negative inflation, gradually improving competitiveness against other members of the currency union, and rising net exports should drive growth as long as they’re not offset by ever-tighter austerity.

Spanish experience since the euro was created in 1999 does indeed suggest that a depressed economy holds down inflation:



And internal devaluation has slowly improved competitiveness (as measured by relative GDP deflators) against the European core:



What about austerity? Spain did a lot of tightening in the first few years of the euro crisis, but not much since then:



So we would expect, other things equal, to see Spain experiencing faster growth than the rest of the euro area at this point, as internal devaluation improves competitiveness while fiscal policy is no longer tightening the screws.

The question then is, does this constitute any kind of vindication of either the euro or the austerity regime? As you might guess, I’d say that the answer is a clear no. Yes, adjustment can take place even with a single currency; but it’s a very slow and painful process. Yes, growth can resume once you stop imposing ever-harsher austerity; also, if you repeatedly hit yourself on the head with a baseball bat, you will feel better when you stop.

What is true is that the single currency isn’t totally unworkable. It’s just extremely costly.

And on an intellectual level, basic macroeconomics continues to account pretty well for European developments. There’s nothing in recent experience that should shock a Keynesian or cause deep self-doubt.

krugman
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2717 em: 2015-12-14 20:09:07 »
lark, hoje o krugman nao pareceu nada contente com o nosso aumento do salario minimo
tens de revolver isso com ele  :D

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2718 em: 2015-12-14 20:14:18 »
lark, hoje o krugman nao pareceu nada contente com o nosso aumento do salario minimo
tens de revolver isso com ele  :D

olha lá, tu não postas positivamente nada, não contribuis com absolutamente nada,
mas está convencidíssimo que tens piada.
não tens lá muita, sabias?
posta mazé qualquer coisa de interessante, de novo, de surpreendente.
ou então muda de café e arranja umas piadas novas.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2719 em: 2015-12-14 20:16:11 »
e este é um exemplo claro do que eu disse acima.
estás a referir-te a quê?

não tens um link, uma transcrição, qualquer coisa?

L

Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt